Girls und Panzer Movie Now Scheduled for Summer 2015

Girls und Panzer movie promo

First, thanks to flaze35 for the news update. Well… at least we got a premier date announcement, but to be honest, that’s considerably later than I had expected.  According to the AnimeNewNetwork article, the movie was originally scheduled for release this year.  I guess they hit a snag somewhere along the way.  That seems to be happening somewhat frequently these days (*looks at KanColle anime*).  However, an announced opening date is better than none.  The TV anime itself ran into delays as well, and the extra time was put to good use.  I expect the same will hold true for the movie, and I’m certainly looking forward to it.

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43 thoughts on “Girls und Panzer Movie Now Scheduled for Summer 2015

  1. I do look forward to this! I’m also eager to see some more St. Gloriana (and have some speaking role for Assam! ).

    I also hope they’ll stick to the summer deadline. As well as they might use well the delays, our patience goes only so far…

  2. Totally agree with the sentiments. Given how large and rabid a fan base this show has you would think they would have put more resources on it. Hopefully the delay is indicative of the quality of the product.

  3. Agree with what everyone said – really hope there are no more delays. As I posted, I was surprised that the movie was delayed this long though by now, it was becoming clear the movie wasn’t going to be released this year as stated when it was announced. Question I have is when are the BDs/DVD’s planned for release? Fall of next year? Long time away from now.

    @Italianguy88: I like St. Gloriana as well – Darjeeling’s a favorite character and she strikes me as a sharp, competent commander. I’m hoping that St. Gloriana fields a few cruiser tanks – Comet for one, and personally, a Centurion as well. Nothing but infantry tanks would be kind of boring – we already saw that. I’m also hoping that the match is more (but not completely) serious in tone – similar to the Senshado Tournament Finals match, but without Oarai being a massive underdog in terms of hardware. A close, back and forth match decided by smart tactics, guts and determination. Oh, and PLEASE make the movie at least 90 minutes long if not 120 minutes. Thanks 😀

    • It is said that it is because Mizushima the Director was involved in certain other productions, such as Shirobako, and that slowed up the process.

      That being said, from secondary material, unless they want a continuity problem the chances of Comets and Centurions are practically eliminated. They will be topping out at a Churchill (1), Cromwell (1), Crusader (few) and the balance being Matilda.

      Not that this is a bad thing if your goal is a match “decided by smart tactics, guts and determination”. Do remember St. G will still outnumber Oarai about 2:1 (but only that … it seems that St.G stretches just to field 15 vehicles) and that while Oarai has 4 vehicles with reasonable firepower now, that still leaves 4 of them. If you want those vehicles to do something useful, and especially in an “integral” fight, St. G’s equipment shouldn’t be too strong.

      I don’t particularly like Darjeeling. I don’t hate her, but it is just “another character like”. She’s definitely the most collected commander we’ve seen so far, though.

      And yes, of course I want the long movie, but quality is more important than quantity.

      • @Kazuaki Shimazaki: I knew the director was involved with a couple other projects after the GuP TV season ended (Witch Craft Works was one if I recall correctly). However, I’m surprised that having at least set a tentative date for the movie (i.e. this year), those other projects were allowed to take precedence over a highly popular series. Probably won’t a make a difference – probably, but I would think they would want to capitalize on the momentum garnered after a highly successful TV season. The OVA was fun and all, but wasn’t even quite a full two episodes worth of material and we already knew the outcome. Like I said, better to have a (more) specific release date than none, but with over 2 years since the TV anime season ended, I see no reason you can’t have both high quality and a 90-120min. movie. 90 minutes is not long for a movie at all. Pretty standard length.

        You’re probably more up to date and/or familiar with secondary materials, but I don’t see any “continuity” problems with adding a “few” (i.e. 2-5) cruiser tanks – including ONE Centurion (MK 1 or MKII) and ONE Comet. Both the Centurion MK1 and the Comet were placed in service during WWII, and the Centurion Mk II almost certainly qualifies under the “prototype” rule (see my Senshado Eligibility Rules Explored post). Out of the list you gave, two were cruiser tanks – Cromwell and Crusader. Also, from that list only two tanks have 75mm guns (Crusader and IIRC St.Gloriana’s Churchill is a Mk VII model). I fail to see how adding one Comet and one Centurion (especially an Mk I) suddenly throws off all competitive balance compared to what Oarai fielded and went up against for the Saunders, Pravda, and most of all, Kuromorimine (KMM) matches.

        In fact, how would you describe Oarai’s win over KMM other than by “smart tactics, guts and determination”? Granted opponent commander decisions helped considerably, but I think you could say the same for Oarai defeating Pravda and Saunders as well. Oarai certainly didn’t give up in any of the matches. I really do not see a problem at all with one Comet and one Centurion being added to St. Gloriana’s mix, though to be honest, I don’t expect a Centurion (like to see one, but highly doubtful). I do think a Comet is certainly fair game. After the Centurion, the Comet was quite arguably Great Britain’s best tank in WWII and certainly saw combat. And I don’t think a 17pd gun is “unfair” when Oarai, with a MUCH weaker line up faced one in the Saunders match let alone, again, what Oarai faced against KMM.

        “Do remember St. G will still outnumber Oarai about 2:1 (but only that … it seems that St.G stretches just to field 15 vehicles)…”

        2:1? Was the amount of tanks in St. Gloriana’s line up for the movie stated? If so, I missed that. If you have additional details about the movie, please share. Why can’t it be Oarai with 9 tanks and St. Gloriana’s with 10 anyway? St. Gloriana fields 1xComet, 1xCromwell, 3-4x Crusader and 4-5xMatilda II (I’ll even forgo 1xCenturion). That is without a doubt a much easier, on par opponent than what they faced with KMM in the finals, and IMO also in the Pravda and Saunders matches after factoring in Oarai’s line up for each. Heck, let’s throw in one Challenger in place of one Crusader. 17pd gun, but also fairly thin turret armor and a pretty high profile as an offset. Something different than just more infantry tanks.

        Frankly, I don’t know what the situation is with the movie. I assumed it was some sort of exhibition re-match between the two rather than another tournament (which is possible). Even if it is another tournament, no reason that this particular tournament can’t have a 10 tank teams per school limit. Different tournament = different rules. Not an issue IMO. If you want to truly equal the field of play, then the show needs to STOP with this 2:1+ numerical odds stuff. There are other variable available to create parity on the field besides what tanks are used – limit the number of tanks each team can use or simply have Oarai find a few more good tanks/TDs. Something. Up to 2:3 odds – OK, but constantly 2:1 or even 2.5:1 gets old after awhile and IMO detracts from the overall story.

        • >However, I’m surprised that having at least set a tentative date for the movie (i.e. this year), those other projects were allowed to take precedence over a highly popular series.

          I agree with that sentiment. But then, this is a commercial decision. A possibility is that Girls und Panzer may not be very cost-efficient – it might be more popular than most but if all those neat tank scenes take enough time they can make two or three easier-to-make anime, it is likely the latter would be more cost-efficient. From a commercial POV anyway.

          >see my Senshado Eligibility Rules Explored post

          The main canon problem is not eligibility. It is that because they won’t want to lose the current cast to graduation, the movie must be set during the remainder of the school year.

          I don’t have St G’s lineup for the movie, but I do have its lineup v KMM in Book 4 of Gekkan Senshado: 11 Matildas, 2 Crusaders, 1 Cromwell (just restored) and 1 Churchill. Further, it is specifically mentioned that 2 Matildas have to be drawn from reserve. They also mention about the pains of getting the resources needed to restore the Cromwell past the numerically large (thus powerful) Matilda faction. Apparently, the winning argument was that there are no more Matildas left that can be brought into fighting condition, so either they restore the Cromwell or go to the semi-finals without a full complement (of course, they can always put in that Mark VI or that Convenanter … but).

          Anyway, extrapolating from this canon reality, any significant upgrades are out this year – for next year, Darjeeling is hoping to eventually somehow modify the Cromwell to take a 17-pounder like a Challenger (Good luck … the whole point behind the Comet was that Cromwell can’t even take the then 75mm HV which will evolve into the 77mm gun…). In essence, they would most likely be fighting Oarai with what they used against KMM..

          >In fact, how would you describe Oarai’s win over KMM other than by “smart tactics, guts and determination”?

          You said you wanted a “close, back and forth match decided by smart tactics, guts and determination”. I agree but I assume you meant “… on both sides” rather than “…from Oarai”.

          Not to unjustifiably take away from Oarai’s achievements, but let’s face it, KMM’s team was really a betrayal of taxpayer yen. Pravda had to make a few big mistakes. Saunders sidelined half its tanks. In fact, despite making mistakes Anzio provided some of the best competition this season. The Doylist secret? Weak tanks and a determination to make up for giving them 10 seconds in the main anime! 🙂

          Further, while they can’t expect to “win with their eyes closed” like KMM should have been able to do, St G’s present equipment fit is not really so bad vs Oarai, especially if it is 15 on 8 (I don’t know how Kinu and Chi-Ha Tan would participate … maybe they are only there for practice, maybe Kinu herself only, or maybe it’d be a combined Oarai/Chi-Ha Tan team of ~15 versus St G).

          The Porsche Tiger outguns the Churchill, but the Churchill is sufficiently more heavily armored to prevent the PT from killing it easily, to say nothing of the L/48s and the other guns are even further off. Meanwhile, its gun is viable against all tanks but the Hetzer (60mm at high angle) and PT.

          The Cromwell has a higher combat coefficient than the Panzer IV-H. The gun’s weaker, true but it is sufficient, it is faster and a late variant will be more heavily armored (100mm front on parts). Remember the Panzer IV-H turret is only 50mm tick. The Crusaders don’t have much gun but again when running can outrun anything Oarai has (everything they have top out <40km/h). This gives St G a lot of tactical options.

          Even the Matildas which do not catch your fancy are difficult for the M3, Type 3, Char B1bis and Type 89 (and of course, the Type 97s if some of Chi-Ha Tan join the party) to kill. They are small and heavily armored (nearly 80mm front and 70mm sides). Their guns are not great but they can pen the sides of all tanks and kill the front of the Type 89, 97 and even the Type 3 at closer ranges.

          I don't know. I just can't see St. G being badly served in equipment here. Do we really need to "improve" them by giving them an easy kill ability against the Porsche Tiger, or would you be happier to see Darjeeling working a bit at the problem?

        • @Kazuaki Shimazaki:
          Re: Movie/Release Date

          In terms of cost, perhaps I’m mistaken, but I’ve consistently read comments that CGI is cheaper than traditional animation, and GuP uses CGI quite a bit. The series is now well established so money shouldn’t be an issue, especially when you consider the fact that 90 minutes is slightly more than four full length TV episodes. That’s cost prohibitive to high quality? While this may not be Unlimited Budget Works, I see no reason why a 90 min. movie = downgrade in quality, especially with a 6 month delay. The Strike Witches movie (to use one example) clocked in at 90 minutes, and I thought it had better overall quality than either TV season. Oh, just to be clear, while I would like a longer movie (more GuP the better), realistically I think 90-95min is the maximum length we can hope for.

          Re: New Tanks

          I have not read any translated excerpts/summaries from Gekkan Senshado so you have me at a disadvantage there. My original statement was simply that as a WWII/tank enthusiast, I want to see more than one Churchill followed by a gaggle of Matilda II tanks (which is all I have to go by from anime season 1). That’s boring – already saw that. Get another two if not 3 or 4 new tanks in the mix – and I don’t mean some obscure tankette or offbeat design.

          A Cromwell is a nice step in the right direction, but two Crusader tanks and that’s it? It’s like St. Gloriana is restricted to only tanks/TDs which participated in the North African Campaign, and they somehow managed to sneak in a Cromwell past Tournament officials. Not asking for much here. Replace one Crusader with a Comet or Challenger (I’ve given up on a Centurion :/). If that’s “too overwhelming” or “canon” dictates that they don’t have the funds, then they sold 3 Matilda II tanks.

          I do agree that the official information would be a limiting factor. However, the situation doesn’t have to be entirely static. Frankly, the issue isn’t whether it’s “canon” or not, but the approach being taken. Up until the finals, the opponent hardware power-creep was mostly held in check, but KMM’s lineup didn’t just break the mold, it ground it into dust. Plain and simple. KMM fielded what – 9 or 10 Panthers, 2xTiger I, 2xTiger II, a couple of Jagdpanzers, at least one Jagdpanther, 1xElefant, AND 1xJagdtiger AND, AND a freaking MAUS on top of everything else. Oops, almost forgot the Panzer III (like that matters). And the reason is…. ‘cause a 2.5:1 numerical disadvantage “just isn’t enough”? >_> KMM’s line was and still is, IMO, ridiculous.

          They broke the proverbial dam with KMM’s lineup – not only in top-notch hardware, but also in variety of tanks/TDs as well – NINE different tanks/TDs. While official material such as Gekkan Senshado may give reasons why KMM’s lineup is an exception, I think the fact they had to provide an explanation in the first place is telling. Covering some old ground here, so I’ll leave it at this. I find some of the given reasons for the various schools’ tank pools lacking, and the more they try to justify such things, the less credible each new justification become. JMO, but that’s how I feel.

          Re: Competitiveness

          First, Oarai did defeat KMM so it’s hard to fathom why St. Gloriana would feel the need to hold back in terms of not using their best tanks. Adding to that is St. Gloriana barely defeating a completely rookie and much worse hardware-wise Oarai the first time around. For St. Gloriana to purposefully hold back is, IMO, disrespectful to both to Oarai and senshado. Part of competition and good sportsmanship is trying your best within the rules of the game to win, and “trying your best” includes both players and equipment. If there’s a problem with that, the problem is due to the rules.

          “Even the Matildas which do not catch your fancy are difficult for the M3, Type 3, Char B1bis and Type 89 (and of course, the Type 97s if some of Chi-Ha Tan join the party) to kill.”

          First, Matilda II tanks are fine, I just do not love Matilda II tanks to the point I want to see my screen 90% filled with them – especially when Great Britain had a variety of tanks during WWII. Given the US WWII TD doctrine and the ubiquitous nature of the M4 Sherman, Saunders fielding nothing but M4s is palatable the first time around. However, if this was a Saunders vs. Oarai rematch, then I would also want other tanks/TDs besides M4 Sherman variants, and I don’t mean only M3 Stuarts either (or M5 or even M24 Chaffees). Throw one Pershing in there, even it’s a Super Pershing. No worse than ONE Tiger II, if that when you consider armor difference between the two. Again, KMM’s lineup opened up Pandora’s Box for this issue.

          Also, while Matildas are heavily armored, they are not invulnerable to the M3 or Type 3 from all angles. Here’s where your tactics come into play. Besides, a much less powerful Panzer IV Asuf. D took out 3 Matilda’s in the first exhibition match IIRC.

          I just can’t see St. G being badly served in equipment here.

          I agree. St. Gloriana is not bad off in terms of hardware and never meant to suggest that. My original comment is that I wanted greater diversity (again, all I had to go by was 1xChurchill + bunch o’ Matilda II tanks). That being said, we seem to disagree in terms of the hardware match up. Not by a lot, but enough to be material. I suspect we’ll do another “Primer” shortly before the movie is released, so I’ll hold off until then on any detailed analysis. Hopefully we’ll get more information about the movie, including both teams’ line up, during the next six months.

          Regardless, the white elephant in the room for me remains what I suggested before – limit the number of total tanks each team can field so that there is not some seemingly constant, ridiculous 2:1 or so disparity. That’s a very viable and effective alternative to being forced to nerf some other school’s tank pool or, as you note, have some sort of Deus Ex Opposing Commander decision (e.g. Kay withholding ½ her tanks, Katyusha napping, KMM – take your pick).

          Think of it this way – you listed 15 tanks for St. Gloriana: 2x Crusader Mk III, 1x Churchill Mk VII, 1x Cromwell and 11xMatilda II. My preference would be to replace one Crusader with one Comet and remove FIVE Matilda II tanks leaving St. Gloriana with 10 tanks total. I would be surprised if you thought one Comet > 1xCrusader + 5xMatilida II – especially since you mention Matilda II’s being a challenge for the Type 89, Type 3, BiBis, M3 Lee and (potentially) Type 97 (at least half of Oarai’s tanks).

          So Oarai fields 9 tanks and St. Gloriana 10 tanks. Problem solved. Just because St. Gloriana’s has more than 10 tanks does not mean they must field all of them. Saunders has like 50 tanks, yet they can’t use all of those in a match. And even if the current rules state otherwise, that doesn’t mean that the rules cannot be changed. Happens all the time in sports. For example, there’s a new rule this season in US football for pass interference.

          “In fact, despite making mistakes Anzio provided some of the best competition this season.”

          We will have to agree to disagree on this one because, as noted in our Anzio OVA review and elsewhere, I thought the Anzio match was the least exciting of all the matches, and personally, my least favorite. It was fun to watch (even if a bit silly at times), and I was glad to have GuP back, but that’s about it. I do not want another Anzio match (and that has nothing to do with which Oarai teams did what). Even if the other matches were more lopsided on paper, they were more exciting and actually had some noticeable tension. For me, the most competitive match of all we’ve seen so far was the exhibition match against St. Gloriana, where… each team had the same number of tanks. Coincidence? I think not.

          “Darjeeling is hoping to eventually somehow modify the Cromwell to take a 17-pounder like a Challenger (Good luck … the whole point behind the Comet was that Cromwell can’t even take the then 75mm HV which will evolve into the 77mm gun…).”

          Well, the Challenger (which featured a 17pd gun) was a derived from the Cromwell so that is possible, but I see where you’re going. Not an easy (or inexpensive) task.

          Gah, another long reply. Sorry about that. In the end, I don’t expect much, if any, deviation from GuP SOP when it comes to the matches and school tank pools. For one, as you noted, there’s already quite a bit of secondary official material giving details which would have to be tweaked/altered. Also, I think it’s clear that at least Oarai’s numerical underdog status will remain indefinitely. I don’t like it, but is what it is. Finally, I do want a close, exciting match full of smart tactics and the appropriate amount of tension, but for all the above, I think that can be achieved with a Comet or even Centurion in the mix for St. Gloriana IF the show is willing to deviate from the SOP, 2:1 Oarai numerical disadvantage.

  4. One thing that may have caused the delay is that they never expected GuP to be as popular as it is and it was essentially a “one-shot” story. The director and production company probably had already committed themselves to other projects. I’d rather have the wait than a slapped together movie that was just done to make money. From a story point of view if they tried to do another season is that a number of the characters were third years and wouldn’t be part of the team if they replayed the Nationals. It would have been hard to have come up with a second season without some major contortions to continue the show. Even with the movie, they probably racked their brains to come up with a storyline. Some sort of exhibition match seems reasonable. I hope they’re not going to make it a do or die situation where St G or Oarai are on the chopping block and they looser gets closed.

    One thing with the St. G exhibition match was that Oarai came close to winning with an inexperienced team. St. G lost in the first round of the Nationals so I would expect them to bring out whatever they can if there is something on the line besides pride.

    AFA Oarai’s tanks go, from the PV it doesn’t look like they have anything better andI don’t remember seeing anything new from St. G’s side either.

    • @ Bear: I think you make a very good point about GuP’s popularity far exceeding expectations, and it originally conceived as a “one-shot” story. I can’t think of any plot issue that wasn’t tied up by the end of Season 1. However, fact remains that when movie was announced, they stated 2014. If some commitment came up after the GuP movie announcement, then again, not sure why that would take precedence, especially since by that time it was pretty clear GuP was turning into a very popular series. Just to be clear and before this issue is blown out of proportion, the delay isn’t that big of a deal for me. It’s disappointing, but yeah, rather they do it right considering it’s almost been two years since the anime finished anyway. However, the delay does raise the bar a bit for me in terms of expectations.

      “From a story point of view if they tried to do another season is that a number of the characters were third years and wouldn’t be part of the team if they replayed the Nationals. It would have been hard to have come up with a second season without some major contortions to continue the show. Even with the movie, they probably racked their brains to come up with a storyline. Some sort of exhibition match seems reasonable.”

      Agree. As noted above, my guess is that the movie centers around an Oarai vs. St. Gloriana exhibition rematch. Tying in the first paragraph, I also agree that continuing the show in a second season would be difficult since Season 1 had such a clean ending. An exhibition rematch is the simplest solution here. In terms of a second season, having some well liked characters leave (i.e. graduate) would be a significant challenge to overcome, but I think it could be done.

      “One thing with the St. G exhibition match was that Oarai came close to winning with an inexperienced team. St. G lost in the first round of the Nationals so I would expect them to bring out whatever they can if there is something on the line besides pride.”

      Agree – see my “TL:DR” reply above XD

      “AFA Oarai’s tanks go, from the PV it doesn’t look like they have anything better andI don’t remember seeing anything new from St. G’s side either.”

      I’m pretty sure Oarai’s team is the same as the one in the finals except for the addition of a Type 97 Chi-Ha (and new character). Can’t remember/tell the specifics for St. Gloriana’s movie lineup.

  5. @daikama
    >In terms of cost, perhaps I’m mistaken, but I’ve consistently read comments that CGI is cheaper than traditional animation, and GuP uses CGI quite a bit.

    I’ve heard of that claim as well, but understood it to mean that CGI is cheaper than traditional animation *of the same quality*. GuP, on the other hand, has plenty of tank scenes which apparently are very hard to animate at the quality we see, either by CGI or traditional – lots of details. Producing all those scenes cost money and time, and that may have been prohibitive compared to scratching out something with lower animation demands.

    >not some seemingly constant, ridiculous 2:1 or so disparity.

    As I said, Chi-Ha Tan’s role in the new movie is still unclear and if they join fully on Oarai’s side, they’d have numerical parity, albeit with a lot of weak tanks. You are actually more likely to get your wish here than on the Comet given the current flow of official material.
    It is also more likely than the idea St Glorianna would reduce the amount of tanks. For one thing as you said, they nearly lost the first time with even numbers … and since they will do their best, it means they’d be using every tank they can move, regardless of type. Besides, the fans almost certainly want to see lots of tanks moving around.

    >Part of competition and good sportsmanship is trying your best within the rules of the game to win, and “trying your best” includes both players and equipment. If there’s a problem with that, the problem is due to the rules.

    St G is not holding back. It is just that, as expressed in Drama CD3, St G has difficulty acquiring anything but infantry tanks and the Gekkan is saying they are having trouble just keeping all of what they have running. Further, there’s the Matilda faction. Beyond the very concept of reducing the number of students that can join an elective just to win an off-season friendly match, how would you win over the Matilda faction to lose 3 Matildas? 🙂

    >I would be surprised if you thought one Comet > 1x Crusader + 5x Matilda II

    It seems we have a slightly different set of priorities as to what we want to see in the movie. You want to see more types of tanks. I won’t mind that but I place greater emphasis on St G putting on a good show. You could be right that from *Oarai’s* point of view, a 10-tank fleet with a Comet in it is roughly equally challenging to a 15-tank fleet without. The main loss, as far as “look-good” opportunities go, is Darjeeling and St Glorianna.

    It is clear that Oarai faces a tactical challenge in defeating St G’s tanks. So if they spread the kills around, they can all look pretty good. Now for St G.

    Without the Comet, even with a 1.5-2:1 superiority, the PT and Hetzer are significant problems to Darjeeling, and she will have to use tactics (outflanking maneuvers, ambushes … etc) to try and get them so her team can get on with killing the weaker remnants. The moment where they kill the PT will thus be a good moment for Darjeeling and her team. Even if they fail, they might still get a Good if the attempt is of high quality.

    With the Comet, even at numerical parity, Darjeeling no longer faces tactical challenges. The task of killing the PT and the Hetzer is now simplified to getting hits – even from the front. It is Oarai that has to think about how not to get hit by the Comet. Since in practice the best St G can hope for from this movie is to lose w/o looking too dumb, w/o challenges for them they are restricted to a Satisfactory or below grading depending on how they lose. The Comet will probably either miss a lot or be placed in restrictive terrain to limit its lethality – both would be demerits against St G. It is also probable the Comet will die and depending on how it does so, it and its commander will look from “Not Too Good” to “KMM Stupid”.

    Leaving Oarai aside, I think I will accept a screen 80% filled with Matildas if it means Darjeeling comes up with some good tactics and St G’s second best gunner (after Assam – I provisionally assume Assam is the best though there’s not much proof either way) can actually hit targets.

    >For me, the most competitive match of all we’ve seen so far was the exhibition match against St. Gloriana, where… each team had the same number of tanks. Coincidence?

    The St G match may be more competitive, but my criteria is providing good competition, and here I still vote for the Anzio match from the viewpoint of good moments for the other side. The St G team didn’t really have good moments other than the ability to make a pretty formation. I can forgive the Matilda that did not recognize a good improvisation of disruptive camouflage, and even the one that didn’t deploy in an optimal location and was only saved by 55mm of rear armor, but they are still hardly *good* moments for members from a veteran team. As for bad moments, the point blank shooting was abysmal, almost KMM or Momo in its quality. One tank lost control. And at the end, Darjeeling failed to forewarn her two lead tanks as to the enemy’s probable maneuver, lost both of them and bullied a victory through thick armor.

    Oarai looked pretty good there, all right. But St G didn’t look quite so good. That’s partially because though numbers were equal, overall St G had the mechanically superior force. Add to the idea that they are veterans. They didn’t nearly have the superiority they should have had and thus they look … not KMM bad, but… not good.

    >While official material such as Gekkan Senshado may give reasons why KMM’s lineup is an exception

    Actually, Gekkan did not bother giving much explanation beyond the rather standard one of them having some good connections with German industry, politicians and military. I guess they realize that many fans consider KMM the “natural state” of a school trying to win, and if anything it is the other schools that need some explanation.

    BTW, you have too many Panthers and too few Jagdpanzer IV/70s.

  6. I’m not a big fan of St. G. myself (not that I don’t like them or their tanks, I simply focus on other girls and tanks), but it seems to me that you guys are selling them pretty short. I’m not sure I agree.
    First of all, St. G. didn’t get knocked out in the first round of the Tournament, and it is legitimate to speculate that they went to the Semifinals and lost to KMM (we know they got over BC Free, and I doubt that either Waffle or Yogurt Academy is going to be such a challenge to stop them dead in this tracks.

    Second, I think the exhibition match against Ooarai, while an upset close call for St. G., wasn’t that much close. Granted, in the end only the Churchill was left standing, but I believe that was an obstacle that could (and effectively did) stop Ooarai dead in its tracks; only the StuG had a fair chance of taking it down, but they decided to be “glorious” and got graciously defeated by their own inexperience (as soon as I saw those flags they planted on it, I know they had something like that coming). The other tanks? The odds were even worse.
    It could be argued that Ooarai overcame worse odds than this (against Pravda and against KMM), but that was because everyone on the team was finally somewhat capable and was willing to do its share; in this peculiar match not only Momo missed (not that it mattered, since even at close range I doubt the 37 mm could do anything even against a Matilda, not without some precision that was sorely lacking), but Rabbit Team bailed out. I can hardly blame them, in their places I would’ve flipped too, and in the end they grew up; but at that time such a thing happened. Ooarai won also because in pretty much all the official matches all the girls were capable even of standing there and taking a shot, which had a huge part in making the difference, IMHO.

    That being said, I think we don’t know well enough St. G. and the details of the tanks they really have to make realistic predictions. To be completely honest, while I understand it, I’m not completely okay with the idea of having the Centurion around; even though it may be, let’s say, borderline agreeable with the rules, I always felt that it belonged already on the next generation of tanks, after WWII. So, personally I believe we could find ourselves satisfied with some more orthodox vehicles, like the Crusader (which is the only one we know they have), the Cromwell or even the Comet.

    Now, I find it curious no one has raised yet the topic of Chi-Ha Tan academy and their vehicles. Given their name, the first thing we think is that they must use only the Type 97 Chi-Ha. If that’s true, I can’t be really optimistic about their performance, since this tank, while arguably successful (just like the Italian M11/39 and M13/40 series, its chassis found adaptations for further vehicles that were decidedly more adequate and efficient), in WWII was firmly amongst the least powerful designs that could be found. Having the same gun as the Type 89B (and we know that this gun is capable of taking out only tankettes at most), with really thin armor (I’m not sure, but I think it didn’t have more than 30 mm of frontal armor), this tank would be in trouble against pretty much everything bigger than a CV.33 and having a 20 mm or bigger gun.
    There may be the chance that they might use the ShinHo To Chi-Ha, but frankly the situation wouldn’t improve by much IMHO. The 47 mm gun gives it a much better punch, but against mid-war medium tanks (like Saunders’ M4s or Pravda’s T-34s) it has to almost touch them before it can take them out.
    So, well… from here, where do we go?

    @Kazuaki Shimazaki
    How can KMM have too many Panthers and too few Jagdpanzers? Perhaps I’m weird, but I’d think I’d take a Panther over a Jagdpanzer; same firepower (with a turret, though), somewhat better protection, better mobility. Not that the Panther is perfect, but I think that overall it’s better.

    • @Italianguy88: I understand your point about the Centurion being a “next generation”/post WWII type of tank, but the Centurion Mk I absolutely qualifies without question. Six prototypes were sent to the 22nd Armored Brigade of the 7th Armored Division in May 1945 (see my Senshado Tank Eligibility Rules Explored article). As for the Mk II along with other possibly eligible prototypes, see the article. If you think those tanks shouldn’t be allowed, then the problem is with the Senshado prototype eligibility rule (which is still much more restrictive than the “in design” rule – approval required or not). Frankly, I fail to see how any of the tanks I discussed in the article are any worse than a Maus.

      As for Kazuaki Shimazaki’s comment, I’m pretty sure he was pointing out that I made a mistake as to KMM’s line up. I was going off of memory since I evidently deleted my notes with KMM’s finals match lineup. Oops. I now think that KMM had 6xPanthers and 4xJagdpanzers rather than 8 and 2 respectively as I originally posted. Don’t have the time/inclination to check since it doesn’t matter concerning my point that KMM had a ridiculous hardware and numerical advantage over Oarai in the finals match. Replacing 2 or so Panthers with Jagdpanzers doesn’t change a thing in that regard. However, I do agree with you that Panther > Jagdpanzer.

  7. @Kazuaki Shimazaki & Italianguy88: Going to make a general reply as I want to clear a few things up as to my take on this.

    (1) I view Senshado as a sport. It may be an elective, but it’s an elective sport – a team sport to be precise. As such, one issue I have with the series is the consistent “2:1” numerical odds situations. Now the ratio does vary (it’s not always precisely 2:1), but it’s pretty close to that except for the St. Gloriana’s exhibition match (one reason I like that match as much as any other in the series). At this point, I’m tired of seeing Oarai significantly outnumbered. It made sense early on as Oarai was literally restarting the program after many years, but they are now national champions. Watching Oarai face “2:1” numerical odds over and over for me is like watching US football (or soccer/team sport of your choice) games where one team has 11 players on the field and the other 20 or more. The underdog, against all odds story is played out and continuing to do so will ultimately be detrimental to my viewing enjoyment. The show compensates for the “2:1″disadvantage in two ways. Either the opposing commander makes some magnanimous concession or stupid mistake which is extremely beneficial for Oarai (e.g. Saunders, Pravda, KMM matches), or about 1/2 the other team’s “tanks” are practically worthless for Senshado (e.g. Anzio and the tankettes).

    However, again, there’s another, and IMO much preferable, option available – keep the number of tanks per team roughly the same. What I want to see for the movie is 9 tanks/TDs for Oarai and 10 tanks/TDs for St. Gloriana. Actually, I’d prefer each have 10 tanks, but then Oarai would have to dig up another tank & team which I don’t expect. Nice if that happened though, and it was a GOOD tank (not some odd-ball tank/tankette). Regardless, 9 vs. 10 is a hell of a lot better IMO than 2:1, 9:15 or whatever. Enough with that stuff.

    (2) Sorry, but as a WWII/tank enthusiast (more the former), all Matilda II all the time is boring. If you’re going to go that route in the name of fostering sufficient competition, then let’s be honest here. BY FAR, the best thing for Senshado competition is for every school to use the same tank, field the same number of teams/tanks and use the same ammunition for every single match. That mirrors what’s done in sports – both in terms of equipment and number of players on the field for each team. There are small variations in equipment allowed (e.g. baseball bat weight), but they are small and the equipment essentially is standardized. If one tank isn’t enough, then you can have Senshado light tank A, medium tank B and heavy tank C. Personally, I’d be surprised if viewers would want that, but if competition is your primary goal here, then that’s the way to best accomplish it. Period.

    However, in my opinion, you can still foster sufficiently competitive matches with some variation in the tanks. I do not think after eliminating 5 Matilda II tanks, substituting ONE Comet for a Crusader, thus leaving St. Gloriana with 10 total tanks, makes the hardware advantage so great in St. Gloriana’s favor that St. Gloriana can only hope “to lose w/o looking too dumb.” ONE 17pd gun is not that big of a deal when Oarai has a Tiger(P) to compensate, and those 75/L48 guns are pretty good. Better than 6pd and certainly 2pd guns with the same type of ammo. Yes, St. Gloriana would have a tank that can take the Tiger(P) out from the front. The thing is that a good tank commander avoids frontal/head-on tank engagements. You want to hit from the side and rear, which of course, requires better tactics than “Charge!”. While JMO, at worst, I see my revised line as equivalent to St. Gloriana with 15 tank – the vast majority of which are heavily armored infantry tanks. Some may disagree with that assessment which is fine, but that’s the way I see it.

    Therefore, I do not see my proposed St. Gloriana line up as adversely affecting the competitive balance when you factor in St. Gloriana has 1/3 less tanks on the field. Matilda II tanks =/= tankettes. Instead, adding a Comet adds some variety to St. Gloriana’s line up – a late war tank which Saunders, Pravda and KMM (in spades) all had. My original comment was primarily due to wanting to see some other tanks in the show, not because I thought St. Gloriana needed the help. Furthermore, I do think Oarai has sufficient hardware not to mention the players to win such a match (i.e. where St. Gloriana has one Comet), without the show resorting to some dubious or “stupid” mistake on the opposing commander’s part. Using US football as an example – teams don’t always lose because of some stupid mistake or dubious decision. Sometimes they just lose because they got outplayed on that given day or the other team got lucky. It happens and happens in combat as well.

    TL:DR = my original comment was simply “I’d like to see one or two different, late model tanks” as much as anything else. With even, or almost even, number of team tanks, I do NOT think that one side has an overwhelming hardware advantage over the other – no more so than with the alternative St. Gloriana lineup listed above featuring 15 tanks. Compared to what Oarai fielded and faced in the Saunders, Pravda and KMM matches, I think my proposed lineup of 10 St. Gloriana tanks is MUCH more competitive. If given due time (which they have with the 6+ month delay) and consideration, I am confident that the writers could come up with a battle plan which features good tactics by both sides, is competitive and exciting to watch.

    Lastly, to be clear, I do not expect my proposals (e.g. a Comet and/or St. Gloriana lineup limited to 10 tanks) to occur in the movie. The GuP recipe seems quite set. Good, late war tanks will be limited (KMM excluded) in an attempt to balance out the large numerical disadvantage Oarai faces in each match. And Oarai will continue to be at a large numerical disadvantage in order to be appear as a big underdog, and, as the protagonist, will then overcome big odds to win.

    • @daikama I understand how you feel about Ooarai being continuously inferior numerically to the opponent. I believe it’s part of the story and the overall theme so far, the underdog thingie that has ended up boring you.
      Can’t say I blame you, but perhaps I can say I think that things could likely change in the future. Is there anything that makes it impossible that Ooarai will either find new tanks and new crews, or other possibilities to the other effect (granted, I’m not entirely fond of the idea of them absorbing some other school in trouble or stuff, I get enough of that on Fanfiction.net)? I don’t think there is.
      As was already explained, the show’s popularity was so much greater than the expectations that they hadn’t planned anything about it continuing. Now that they have to go on, they can explore other roads. Always IMHO, this is kind of what they did with the Anzio OVA, since they had an opponent whose numerical superiority really didn’t mean anything, and that, all things considered, was not at the top comparing to Ooarai when it came to tank stats and such. I know you didn’t like it, but perhaps it was a step in the right direction, albeit tentatively…

      Whoops, I had missed the part of the Panthers and Jagdpanzers. My mistake.

      • @Italianguy88: It’s not that I’m bored with the series right now. Let me be clear – I enjoyed the OVA. I just didn’t enjoy it as much as the TV season for the reasons I’ve already stated. I still like the series a lot and it’s still one of my favorites (especially the TV anime), but after the OVA, it’s on the edge in some respects – particularly the tank lineups. You make a good point about Anzio being numerically superior, but in terms of overall hardware capability, equal or at a slight disadvantage compared to Oarai. In fact, I stated as much in our GuP OVA Primer (“I still give Oarai a slight edge in terms of hardware advantage based mostly upon the StuG III and its best in match 75 mm StuK 40 L/48 main gun, but the two teams are close to even IMO with that extra Semovente 75/18”).

        So I agree with you that in one sense, the OVA was a “step in the right direction” though I’m not so thrilled with the method used – nerfing Anzio’s tank pool (one reason I like the manga version of the battle better). The problem is that I foresee the overtly large numerical underdog theme continuing and it’s been done so much before. I’m getting close to my limit on that. So while it may not have been a material issue in the past for me, I do foresee it becoming one in the future if that particular theme continues (as I suspect it will). That’s just my opinion though as I realize that others may not have a problem with it. Hopefully the above clears up any misunderstanding about my view on the series as a whole.

        I really don’t think it’s impossible to significantly alter Oarai’s lineup at all. They won the national title and that’s not to be underrated – at least not where I’m from. Alumni/corporate donations, general fundraising – whatever. Could be money or even donated tank(s) from some rich collector who was moved by Oarai’s inspiring win. Turn the tables in terms of school expenses. Now some other school – perhaps even KMM (as a result of losing the finals twice in row) now finds that they need to sell some good tanks at a discount. Heck, given how they got their tanks, it would fit in perfectly if Oarai accidentally found one or two more hidden away somewhere. None of this will get them to the Saunders/KMM tank pool levels, but adding even a couple top-notch tanks would make an appreciable difference let alone 3-5. Oarai has one special thing going for it in terms of tanks/TDs – they have tanks from various nations unlike the other schools. So perhaps add a T-29 (it qualifies under the prototype rule). Maybe Oarai gets a Centurion Mk I/Mk II rather than St. Gloriana. Whatever. Point is that it could be done in a plausible manner. So I don’t think you need to “absorb” another school in order to accomplish this. Frankly, I never even thought of the “school absorption” idea. Does the Oarai school ship even have enough room to do that? O.o

        Another option, perhaps in conjunction with the above, is what I keep saying – just get rid of the large numerical disadvantage. I honestly don’t know why people seem to be against this so much. As I previously noted, games evolve and rules change. It’s common place in sports. The Sensha-do (is this hyphenated or not?) Committee decides to put in place a rule that one team may not field more than 150% of the number of tanks/TDs fielded by the opposing school rounded down to the nearest whole unit. So if a school fields 7 tanks, the opposing school may field up to 10. If a school fields 8 tanks, then the opposing school can field up to 12 tanks and so on. That works in conjunction with the current tournament limits. So for the 1st round, 10 tanks maximum per team applies. If School A fields 5 tanks, then School B can field up to 7 tanks. If School A fields 8 tanks, then School B can field 10. This is just an idea off the top of my head. You can play with the percentages (e.g. maybe 120% of the other schools lineup rounding up to the nearest whole unit) or add other rule tweaks as necessary. Point is that there are other simple, valid ways to go about balancing opposing team line ups besides nerfing tank pools.

        Two last points on this (sorry for the long reply – big topic XD). First, part of my issue with the numerical tank line up disparity is principle. It’s just jarring to see a sports competition where one team constantly has 150%, 200% or even 250% of the players on the field compared to the other team. I struggle to think of any RL sport where that’s routinely the case. Second, personally, I don’t mind if Oarai is the underdog. In fact, I’m not so sure if the story works well unless Oarai is the underdog to some degree. But what degree is a critical factor and ties into the heart of all of this. Too often the degree to which Oarai is an underdog (at least on paper) is excessively large. The show has to do something to counter-balance the “standard 2:1” Oarai numerical disadvantage. For Anzio, it was nerfing the tank pool. For Saunders, Pravda and KMM, it was “Deus Ex Opposing Commander Decision”. Kay holds back HALF of her tanks in the “spirit of fair play”. Katyusha takes a freaking 3 hour nap in the middle of the match… for reasons (arrogance I guess). Maho constantly leads with KMM’s flag tank and accepts a one-on-one dual against Miho – throwing away her massive hardware advantage “because that’s the Nishizumi way of Sensha-do”. It all worked well enough before, but if they continue to do this, IMO story credibility will ultimately suffer.

        “As was already explained, the show’s popularity was so much greater than the expectations that they hadn’t planned anything about it continuing.”

        I agree completely with that. I’d literally be shocked if the series was not originally planned to be a single cour season anime and that’s it. (OVA stuff excluded). When the show ended, I participated in an online discussion about possible story lines for a second and even third season (this was right after the TV anime first season anime and before the movie was announced). It was brought up several times that the TV anime really wasn’t set up for continuing the story, but it could be done. If there’s enough interest in the topic, perhaps Bear and I could post something on that.

        • @daikama I agree with you. I also hope that, now that they see that the series had a success they didn’t dare hope for, they’ll start some serious brainstorming to explore other possibilities. And for that, some expansion of Ooarai’s roster seems necessary – if nothing else, they at least will be able to choose what to use, pretty much what they other schools had to do.
          I had in fact pointed out that Anzio is numerically superior, but that was more than compensated by the fact that six out ot ten tanks were CVs. And I agree that by throwing out one of them and fitting another Semovente may have closed the edge. However, I think we agree that the edge in this case went to Ooarai, and that’s what was important.
          To be honest, the whole “absorption” idea isn’t original me; it’s just that on Fanfiction.net it’s played for nausea (don’t get me wrong, there are some of such stories that are pretty good, but if 80% of all GuP stories up there have this background… you get bored pretty quick). To be honest, I’m not sure either wheter it would be plausible and/or feasible in the show, so I think they’ll stick with the “simple expansion” pack.
          Your idea for a rule that would limit the numerical disparity is interesting, and could be explorated further, even though there are many factors to consider (what happens when one side – KMM – has Tigers and Panthers and such, and another – Chi-Ha Tan – has Type 97s?).
          As I said, my idea is that they went deep enough with the underdog thing, and now they’ll develop storylines which go in another direction. IMHO it suits their needs too: they need to keep the show captivating, and after showing the protagonists having to eke out narrow victories against mostly superior opponents, now it would be okay to see what they can do with opponents at their same level.
          So, I guess only future will tell. But we have some good reason to hope for the best, I think!

          Don’t worry. I don’t mind length! 😉

  8. @daikama & italianguy
    A very interesting discussion is going on. Allow me to participate as someone who read more of the “Expanded Universe”.

    First, as far as Oarai is the underdog goes, the trend in GuP is now that endgame Oarai is actually coming up to the 2nd quartet, at least as far as Senshado teams that can be fielded in the national contest are concerned:
    Q1: KMM, Pravda, Saunders, then it is St G (which we are now told can barely field 15 tanks – I’m tempted to put Yoghurt here but St G won against Yoghurt).
    Q2: Yoghurt (<10 tanks since they mobilized a CV33, but has Panther, IV/70, Hetzer and L/48 equipped Panzer IV and StuGs), Blue Division (size unknown but I'm betting it isn't bigger than StG and it has Panzer IV-H), Maple (new school to fill up half a page, but has Grizzly and Rams) and you know what, we are already at Oarai.
    Q3: Maginot (10 tanks; tops out at Char B1), BC Freedom (nerfing Anzio’s tank pool

    Nerf? What are you complaining about? Oh, OK, I do agree they might have tried to make Contracarros out of the CV33s, but historically that’s a field mod, so you can’t say they are “nerfed” just because they didn’t hotrod the CV33.

    Or do you mean the M13/40s that were in the manga? First, the way they refuted it shows they feel it is canonically lower than a FanFic so you can’t say they are nerfed just because they didn’t follow a FanFic.

    Second, remember that the M13 will not actually be allowed to kill anything (and we know this from the start). So where do you place it? On Rabbit Team’s side so Aya can “eat” it for a snack while running away from Semoventes? In the center so it can go the way of the center’s CV33? Or on Duck Team’s side – trading the 5 CV for it since you want even numbers? The duel becomes the M13 v the Type 89, and a lot of misses will be added to drag the battle to the correct length before Duck Team wins. A M13 that is not allowed to do much constructive is unlikely to improve the story. The story is also likely to have less good moments for Anzio.

    If we must use the word “nerf”, since they aren’t going to be allowed to kill more than the StuG, the choice was nerfing the Anzio tank *fleet* or the Anzio tank *team*. They decided to nerf the fleet, which makes Anzio tankers luckier than *any* of the other teams that opposed Oarai.

    >it would fit in perfectly if Oarai accidentally found one or two more hidden away

    Quite frankly, that shtick had been done too many times. But I do agree Oarai can upgrade its tank fleet somewhat – I do like the idea of Rabbit Team moving into a T29 though it is a bit slow 🙂

    >I honestly don’t know why people seem to be against this so much.

    I don’t think I’ve expressed severe objection, just that I don’t think it’d happen, good idea or not. You might, however, consider this problem from the viewpoint of a big school that can do “Full-Hensei” Senshado, 50 on 50. Say what you want about the small school’s chances, but at least they all get to show their faces in the national match. The big school’s students are effectively penalized for joining a big school, with as many as 80-90% of them not being allowed to even participate in the tournament, though they may be as good as the small school’s Senshado students. Is this fair to them?

    Of course, giving the small schools a chance is also a consideration. But since there are *competing* pressures, the present rules are a compromise between them. So, how do you justify revised regulation that locks out even more of the larger school’s students?

    A more realistic idea is some kind of alliance – which is quite a probable scenario given the snippets we see (sorry they are Chi-Has, though). I don’t know why you are unhappy you are likely to get some of your wish.

    In-universe considerations aside, I do agree that the present tactics are reaching their limits. However, you seem to place more value on avoiding numerical superiority, while I look at the Correlation of Force, which includes both qualitative and quantitative indices. Thus, I prefer the Anzio battle, partially because the CoF is even, while you prefer the St G battle because the *numbers* are even. Obviously, this leads us to have different conclusions as to what disbalances the show more, a Comet or 5 Matildas.

    >The thing is that a good tank commander avoids frontal/head-on tank engagements

    A good tank commander tries to kill most efficiently while staying alive. Thus, if the engagement starts frontally, and his gun has the penetration, he should take the shot rather than try to be clever. Movement (such as to get a outflanking position) attracts the eye.

    • @Kazuaki Shimazaki: First, I assume I deleted the duplicate post you wanted deleted. If not let me know.

      Re. “Nerfing: Has nothing to do with the CV33, but having so many CV33 in the lineup – over half. Anzio’s lineup was “nerfed” IMO because of the mix of tanks (so many CV33s rather than true tanks). No M13/14/15 or better TDs (i.e. no Semovente 75/34 or 75/46). Pretty clear to me that it was done so that Oarai could have a relatively easy win as required by Ep. 07. Surely you don’t suggest that a CV33 is the equivalent of an M13/M14. At least the latter can actually harm another tank.

      “If we must use the word “nerf”, since they aren’t going to be allowed to kill more than the StuG, the choice was nerfing the Anzio tank *fleet* or the Anzio tank *team*.

      O.o… that’s my point all along. They nerfed the Anzio tank pool (or “fleet” in your words) so that the story could play out per Ep. 07 spoiler ending.

      First, the way they refuted it shows they feel it is canonically lower than a FanFic so you can’t say they are nerfed just because they didn’t follow a FanFic.

      The official manga is “lower than a fan fic”!? Please. I know you hate the manga, but that’s nothing short of hyperbole. The manga IS an official GuP product is it not? Call it an alternative version if you want. I still prefer the manga’s version of the battle, and nothing so far has changed my opinion on that. I know you disagree which is fine. Like I said before, we can agree to disagree here.

      As for “canon”, frankly, I don’t care because the analysis is how could it be better/improved – even “what I would like to see”. If we’re just going to take canon as irrefutable law, then there’s no point in even making any criticism or alternative suggestions about the series at all – that includes actions by all teams and players.

      Re. Underdog: Underdog is underdog. Only time that Oarai wasn’t an underdog in terms of hardware when you factor in tank/TD quality along with the number of tanks/TDs for each team was against Anzio. Every other time Oarai was the underdog. Given your comments about the Matilda II tank’s toughness vs. half of Oarai’s tanks (or 5/9 if you count the Type 97 Chi-Ha), are you now suggesting that in your 9:15 match up Oarai is not the underdog? Less so than other matches? Sure, but I would think Oarai’s still the underdog. As for whether my suggested team lineup makes Oarai more of an underdog, I assume you disagree, but again that’s fine. We can agree to disagree on that too.

      As for the other weaker schools, I fail to understand how my suggestion makes things any worse in terms of competition. So let’s say if limited to 10 tanks, School A fields their best 10 tanks which on paper are overwhelming against whatever School B can field. So what? There is NOTHING to stop School A from putting those same 10 best tanks (or TDs) PLUS another five as well if they are allowed to field 15.

      The weaker schools are a result of the world building in the series. The French school is going to be weaker simply because they are limited to French tanks and French tanks during WWII were not very good compared to later tanks from other nations. Is what it is, and a direct result of the way the GuP world was created. However, I fail to see why other schools should be kept from having tanks that their country had during WWII in accordance with the published Senshado rules (i.e. “canon”). KMM sure as hell took advantaged of that (*cough* Maus, Jadgtiger, etc.). You’re never going to get parity in terms of hardware unless you do what I said above

      BY FAR, the best thing for Senshado competition is for every school to use the same tank, field the same number of teams/tanks and use the same ammunition for every single match.

      Like I said, if there’s a problem, it’s a problem with the rules (“canon”).

      The big school’s students are effectively penalized for joining a big school, with as many as 80-90% of them not being allowed to even participate in the tournament, though they may be as good as the small school’s Senshado students. Is this fair to them?”

      Then they can transfer to a smaller school or work hard and improve their skills. Is it fair? Is it “fair” to deny a reasonable chance at a championship to the school’s top players who have worked long and hard on their skills so that anyone and everyone can participate in the tournament instead? There is another side to the “participation” coin. One may try out for the school choir, but if they are tone deaf and sing horribly off-key, then is it “fair” that they don’t make the choir, or should the music be ruined so that everyone can participate? Is it “fair” that not everyone can be on the student council, or should we make the entire student body the student council so that every one can participate on the student council? I played a couple high school (HS) sports and I always had to try out for them. In one sport, I was not a starter. I didn’t bitch that it “wasn’t fair” because the players who started ahead of me were simply better (whether more skilled and/or bigger/stronger/faster). They EARNED the right to start. I didn’t – simple as that. The other sport, I EARNED the right to be a starter, and I had to KEEP earning that right. If a better player came along, then I go back to the bench. Way it works and I didn’t think it was “unfair”. Neither did those who were not starters since they understood that part of sports is doing your best to win competitions. You’re not going to be able to participate in everything you want to do. That’s life.

      We’ve previously discussed the “participation aspect” and I maintain my view. As I stated before, I am not suggesting that schools take a “winning is everything” approach, but there has to be SOME balance between actually trying to win the tournament/matches and participation, and IMO, that balance is sorely lacking based upon the non-anime “canon” information you’ve provided. This isn’t grade school. At any rate, we are going over old ground again, so I’ll leave it at that. As before, I think it’s clear that we are not able to come to some form of agreement on the issue so agree to disagree here as well.

      — A good tank commander tries to kill most efficiently while staying alive. Thus, if the engagement starts frontally, and his gun has the penetration, he should take the shot rather than try to be clever. Movement (such as to get a outflanking position) attracts the eye.

      First, if is the key word here. A good tank commander will AVOID frontal engagement in the first place, and try to take out the enemy tank from side/rear since that almost always means the enemy tank won’t have an instant shot at them. I’ve read both The Tank Killers and The Infantry’s Armor, and repeatedly, the goal for WWII tankers was NOT frontal engagement, but side/rear shots where the armor was thinner. Doesn’t matter if they could penetrate the front – side/rear armor is still the higher probably one shot kill. But yes if it just so happens that you do have a frontal engagement, then fire, and MOVE. “Shoot and scoot” was a widely used tactic and with good reason. So Comet or not, I see no reason why Darjeeling must or even should go charging straight ahead with the Comet for only frontal attacks. That’s ONE option – not the ONLY option as you seem to suggest. That was my point.

  9. Oh, I get it. I can’t use a lesser than” sign:

    Q3: Maginot (10 tanks; tops out at Char B1), BC Freedom (*under* 10 tanks, tops out with one Sherman), Chi-Ha Tan (on the 18th they’d finalize this one, but what do you think?), Koala (Lee and Sentinel AC1), Waffle (105mm howitzer equipped M4)
    Q4: Bonple (tankettes), Anzio (we saw them), Gregory (another space-filler, got some LTM35s), Viking (tops out at a 75/L24 equipped PzIII-N)

    So, it isn’t really that Oarai is that much of an underdog. It is that it is challenging the upper crust of Japanese HS Senshado society.

    >nerfing Anzio’s tank pool

    Nerf? What are you complaining about? Oh, OK, I do agree they might have tried to make Contracarros out of the CV33s, but historically that’s a field mod, so you can’t say they are “nerfed” just because they didn’t hotrod the CV33.

    Can diakama or Bear please delete the extra comments? Thanks.

    • @Kazuaki Shimazaki Aren’t you selling the Italian M tanks a little low? First of all, in the manga they actually killed the Type 89B (ok, big deal, but they definitely did). Then, their 47 mm gun isn’t so bad (at very close range it can actually kill a Sherman, perhaps even frontally, even though the sides and the rear are much better options), and I think it’s definitely better than the pair of 8mm MGs the CVs have; and also better than the 20 mm AT rifle (there’s a reason AT rifles tended to disappear pretty quickly in the war).
      That being said, I’m not lambasting Anzio’s lineup; sure, those tankettes make me cringe, but hey, that’s what they got, so we have to deal with them. Too bad.

      That being said, I think Anzio should held a little higher position. First of all, we don’t know anything about the tanks the other schools fielded (except Bonple and Chi-Ha Tan, and now Maginot), but I’m not so sure they can access so easily German-given tanks. Otherwise, it would be perfectly legitimate for Anzio to use Panzer IIIs and IVs and StuG IIIs (because they formed an armoured division in 1943 with them, the Divisione Corazzata M, sort of a would-be Pretorian Guard for Mussolini), but they didn’t.
      If that’s the case, these other schools will have some trouble I think. The only one I think can be really though (and we have confirmation in the OVA) is Jaktosota (Finnish).
      Besides, where did you find “Maple school”? In the schools participating in the Tournament is nowhere to be found!

      With that, I don’t see how Maginot ranks higher than Anzio. Their Char B1 bis may be impressive, but how is it superior to a P40? The SOMUAs, the Renault R35s are ok, but they can be dealt by the Semoventi. The Renault FT, on the other hand, is hardly a killer tank; I’m ranking it only a little better than the Type 89B, but that’s it. I’m not even sure that its weaker armor can’t be penetrated by the CV’s 8 mm MGs using AP bullets!
      So, IMHO, Maginot at best can be on par with Anzio; but definitely not superior. Besides, their tanks are all somewhat slow, and they have one or one-and-a-half man turrets, which means that before they locate the enemy, load the gun and fire, said enemy has plenty of time to send a gift or two.

      All in all, we’re just throwing ideas around.

      • @Italianguy
        >Aren’t you selling the Italian M tanks a little low?

        I’m not selling them low. The problem is that the OVA has to link up to Ep7 – its canonicity will be destroyed if it doesn’t. Since Carpaccio got the one allowable kill (the StuG), the rest of the team is doomed to not kill anything. The OVA made the best out of the situation, and I think they did a very good job. However, under the circumstances, I just don’t see how subbing some CVs for a M13 can improve things. In fact, the more firepower Anzio has, the worse they are doomed to look and the overall quality of the OVA would not increase either.

        >That being said, I think Anzio should held a little higher position. First of all, we don’t know anything about the tanks the other schools fielded (except Bonple and Chi-Ha Tan, and now Maginot), but I’m not so sure they can access so easily German-given tanks.

        Well, I didn’t make the decision. The Gekkan Senshado did, and I’m just writing the results out – the only creativity was sorting them into 4 quartiles. I’m actually surprised they gave such a nice set to Yoghurt and Blue Division.

        >Besides, where did you find “Maple school”? In the schools participating in the Tournament is nowhere to be found!

        Yes, they forced it in. Basically, a grand total of 4 pages of each Gekkan Senshado discusses opposing teams. Normally, the teams that actually starred in show get 2 pages, and other Also-Rans get one page each. But both Kuromorimine and Pravda took 2.5 pages with their tank collections, so they spent the .5 page on some newly made up Never-Rans. Don’t ask me why they did not attend the tournament, because they didn’t even try to explain it.

        In the last book, it seems Chi-Ha Tan is due to get two pages, Continuation gets one, and there are two half pages for another two Never-Ran Schools.

        >With that, I don’t see how Maginot ranks higher than Anzio. Their Char B1 bis may be impressive, but how is it superior to a P40? The SOMUAs, the Renault R35s are ok, but they can be dealt by the Semoventi. The Renault FT, on the other hand, is hardly a killer tank; I’m ranking it only a little better than the Type 89B, but that’s it. I’m not even sure that its weaker armor can’t be penetrated by the CV’s 8 mm MGs using AP bullets!

        Well, actually I was being a bit loose on the 3rd and 4th quartiles because all the teams are actually pretty weak and my main point is that Oarai is really on the upper half in the official power ranks these days. Anyway, I see where you are coming from, I’ve considered it, but I gave the nod to Maginot because at least the FT has a gun rather than a MG and the Somuas are tanks with turrets.

        • To be honest, that thing seems foggy to me… I’m not saying we should not consider it, since it’s official, but if they throw away this info without giving us the big picture… I don’t know, I hope new issues will do some explaining.

          In any case, what is done is done; I’m fine with the OVA, and I’m not bent on changing it. It’s true that it was bound by Episode 7, and I agree that they made the best of it (even though taking down Ooarai’s most powerful vehicles is rather cool by me). But perhaps we could talk a little about the future, in which case Anzio might need some better vehicles.
          And in that case, I think its potential is actually decent: just in theory (because we know their economical situation) a basic program might be an armament upgrade (e.g. fitting the CVs with the Solothurn AT rifles and the Semoventi with the 75/34 gun); if they hit the jackpot or something, they can get even more serious (getting some M15/42, which may not like much, but I think it would be quite useful still, or better Semoventi, with the 105/25 or the 75/46 gun, and these are a danger from the sides if not frontally for lots of tanks around; another chance might be the Carro M Sahariano, an Italian version of the Crusader, sleek and fast but arrived too late). And fielding some more P40s (even if we’re talking about real leftovers tank, one could be surely legal, since its presence is confirmed IRL) might be a good idea, since it enables you to be a match to other medium tanks.
          This being said, I’m not saying that this way Anzio might go to the big leagues; even with an upgraded lineup like this I can’t see them going against KMM or Pravda (for that they would need tanks like the P43 or the P43bis that might give them a small chance, but they never left the paper, so…). But that would still make them a force to be reckoned with in the lower ensemble, I think.

          All being said and done, I get your logic, and I think I can’t argue with that. I only want to say that the other Maginot tanks may have turrets, but they have quite a handicap using them; the Semoventi don’t have a turret, but that makes them all the harder to hit, especially if you’re slowly trudging along and the Semoventi are all laid up in ambush.
          I think that’s how Anzio beat Maginot; using their superior mobility (and the CVs) to overload Maginot’s girls, and perhaps goad them into a trap where the Semoventi got a shot at the flag tank. Which means that they somehow managed it against two 75 mm howitzers, two 47 mm and six 37 mm guns; to be honest, it seems that in this match the edge in firepower was clearly to Maginot, yet they were defeated. It must mean something.
          In the end, however, I think you’re right. As it is, Anzio is surely lacking firepower (not to mention protection).

          If I’m killing you with my pointless objections, tell me, and I’ll shut up. 🙂

  10. I would like to see more tank types however they might manage to add them to the movie. It’s part of the fun of the show regardless of whether it fits the rules or show background. Of course the more tank types the higher the cost to the studio since each type has to be “built” in a computer. Once you’ve absorbed the sunk cost of design then replicating it is cheap.

    AFA absorbing another school, it would more likely be that Oarai would be the one swallowed based on their size (their ship is tiny compared to the others we see) and the fact that they were the ones on the chopping block to be closed. As I understand it, even though Oarai wound up high in the overall rankings, the fact that they were not in Senshado at the time wasn’t the reason. It was their size that was in question. Short of gaining another ship, they’re reputation would be the only thing saving them from dissolution.

    My “rule change” to even things out was something that I mentioned in the original discussions on Random Curiosity. Limit the total amount of ammunition that each team has during a match. You can field a larger number of tanks but each tank would have fewer rounds. You might even let the teams distribute the rounds as they see fit. They might give your best tanks the most rounds but, if you do, you’re gambling that they won’t be taken out early and you’ve lost a lot of your ammunition. You could even make it more restrictive by basing it on some formula such as penetrating power (though you would have to calculate that based on the guns that each team has). With that approach, giving a Tiger more rounds would have a greater negative effect on the other members of the team evening things out with a team with less powerful guns. Something of a handicapping technique. If MG rounds weren’t included, it would give Anzio a higher combat load in the anime per tank.

    In reference to the question of prototypes, I wish they didn’t allow them in the game. The Maus especially. If it actually fought in combat, then I think it’s fair game but something that never left the drawing board or was barely functional like the Maus that never left the proving ground just leaves me with the sense of guessing as to how effective a semi-mythical machine might fare.

    One thing about the Jadgpanther vs the Panther. My understanding is that the major reason for the development of the Jadg was cost and speed of construction. Much cheaper to build (lower silhouette also) without the turret. Even dictatorships have to adhere to some economics. If you have the money go with the real thing IMO.

  11. @italianguy88
    >I hope new issues will do some explaining.

    I suspect they are going for the “Discretion is the Better Half of Valor” strategy. The easiest reason for non-participation is usually that they are too weak and they know it (Erika’s unwritten rule). Unfortunately, with the 4th quartile so weak, you can’t make worthwhile teams that are weak enough. So, rather than open themselves to attack, they decide to let fans speculate.

    >But perhaps we could talk a little about the future, in which case Anzio might need some better vehicles.

    Let me just say that these are good ideas, and except for the Solothurn rifles who did not gain the favor of Anzio’s students, many of these ideas are officially being considered as upgrade programs. Another one being considered is of course the Semovente 90/53, which will give them some real “anti-heavy” capability – they’d have to find something that covers the back and is acceptable to the Federation.

    I’d be a bit more optimistic than you, though. If they do manage to implement all the upgrade programs, they actually reach the point where winning against Saunders or Pravda becomes at least a thinkable proposition. At the very least, they’d rise to somewhere close to Q2.

    By the way, I don’t mind long posts. I do like to discuss these issues. I can’t speak for Diakama and Bear, though.

    @diakama
    Yes, you deleted the right post.

    Let’s start at the bottom. First, as long as the barrel is not pointed *straight* at you, they don’t have an instant shot – they have to lay on you to get a hit. I don’t deny that side / rear shots do have advantages in chance of kill and also increased reaction time, all else being equal. Nevertheless, where the chance of a frontal penetration is high enough (one reason why Americans choose side and rear shots is because they are not very confident in their gun’s penetration v Panthers and Tigers), the disadvantages of the front must be balanced against the risks of counterdetection b/c you with-held the shot. Nevertheless…

    >That’s ONE option – not the ONLY option as you seem to suggest.

    My original statement was “With the Comet, even at numerical parity, Darjeeling no longer faces tactical challenges. The task of killing the PT and the Hetzer is now simplified to getting hits – even from the front.”

    Since as you agree, with the Comet the solution is open to Darjeeling, there really isn’t much left to say except to argue you are undervaluing the advantage. Why do you think the Tiger and Panther is so feared? Because they can pen you from the front if they want, and you have to sneak and squirm to the side. This can be countered, but it is a massive disadvantage which led to the 5-on-1 stories.

    Modern historiography is trending towards arguing this is much exaggerated, but it does have a theoretical base. Further, modern historiography generally say this did not happen partially / mostly because German tanker training has much degraded by late 1944, which supports my point – you actually look pretty bad when you lose this way. All else being even, I want to see more tank variety, but letting this happen to St G is not the trade I want to make. now back to the top.

    Re Nerfing: “Nerfing” has a definition. It means the story has led you to expect Capability X for something, then when it actually runs the capability is less. So Pravda was nerfed for the 2nd half. Considering its reputation, KMM was nerfed. Even St G was arguably nerfed in the 5-on-5. In effect, you are claiming the story short-changed you – a sign of poor storywriting.

    However, if we ignore the manga, there is *nothing* in the buildup to the OVA that can cause a viewer to objectively deduce there will be more. We saw the tanks they had in Ep7. We saw they at best inflicted 1 casualty on Oarai. The Gekkan contributes by showing you plenty of weak teams and even St G is not as strong as many may hope. If they actually showed up with more, it’d be called a last minute upgrade.

    If you were disappointed, it is not because the story misled you – you just had a wishlist that’s poorly connected to the story so far. Thus, the usage of “nerf” is unobjective.

    That aside, can you tell me how, given the OVA’s constraints, M13s would have improved the story? Remember. They can’t kill anything.

    Even if I ignore this, suppose I make you God. If you snap your fingers to fuse the 6 CVs playing with Duck into a M15, Duck would be nearly stripped of any chance to contribute but Anzio still doesn’t look too good b/c a M15 should be able to beat a Type 89! If you transformed the 75/18s into 46s, you would have been cursed by the beneficiaries. It might be useful later, but now the Semoventes will be chasing Rabbit Team and doing Tank Kendo with the StuG. The main contribution of the longer barrel would be to introduce an overhang problem and also the gun is now heavier and slower to move. Having her “dagger” traded for a “longsword”, Carpaccio’s gunner might thus lose her parrying match with the StuG and the two Semoventes chasing Rabbit Team will find it even harder to line up and hit.

    Maybe they are just fine the way they are…

    >I know you hate the manga

    I admit it is far from my favorite piece of official material, but I can’t decide its canonicity. The author did himself in by failing to comply with a few simple instructions. As a result, the anime staff clearly decided to expunge every last part of the manga’s Battle of Anzio out of canon, far more than necessary to just link up to the ending and keep Yukari in the loader’s seat. You might not like it, and it really isn’t very good practice for a continuity to expunge officlal material like that, but sometimes it is necessary and in any case that’s what they did.

    Even a FanFic they like may have some elements quietly incorporated (the name “Nilgiri” for example actually promoted into canon – she now commands the St G’s Cromwell – the powers-that-be may well have read a bit of FanFiction.Net with all its “Nilgiris”), but the manga is to be expunged. You tell me, how is this not “lower than a FanFic”?

    >As for “canon”, frankly, I don’t care because the analysis is how could it be better/improved – even “what I would like to see”.

    Canon may not be irrefutable law, but knowing its present state allows one to make more realistic suggestions – ones that actually have a chance of being implemented. Unrealistic expectations cause you to feel “nerfed” when it isn’t the case.

    >Underdog is underdog. Only time that Oarai wasn’t an underdog in terms of hardware when you factor in tank/TD quality along with the numbers was against Anzio

    What I meant to say was that with the total state of GuP canon, now they are not the underdogs. They just challenge teams above them, that would usually be considered “out of their station”.

    >As for the other weaker schools, I fail to understand how my suggestion makes things any worse in terms of competition.

    Analysis of this counter versus preceding comments suggests it is better addressed to Italianguy88 than me. Anyway, I agree with you on this subpoint.

    >I fail to see why other schools should be kept from having tanks that their country had during WWII in accordance with the published Senshado rules

    Other than, perhaps, realizing that you will wind up like KMM if you keep trying to win through blatantly superior equipment? Remember, KMM is supposed to represent the wrong path!

    >Then they can transfer to a smaller school or work hard and improve their skills.

    A smaller school whose tankery program is so small it likely does not have a tank for them?

    What follows is a jumbled response. Some parts seem more suitable as a response to the “More Tanks / Better Tanks” debate we had in the Anzio related sections. So I’ll just make a general response.

    First, regarding sports analogies. You can say you tolerate it, but you do realize that the sports system of fixed numbers actually *does* disadvantage those that happen to come from bigger schools do you? They have to be in the top 10% to hope to get in the match. In the meantime, in a small school, a guy that can barely kick the ball (or tone deaf in your example) may be included – is this fair or meritocratic?

    If you are in the big school and you are, say, just below the cut, you may be justifiably angry that a guy that can barely kick the ball is at least on the field simply because he’s in a small school and you are not just because you are in the big one. It may be the choice by sports teams, but it is actually not entirely fair.

    Well, at least with most sports, if you ignore the other, substantial advantages of Big School, you can transfer to the small school and probably be welcome. With Senshado, I say again, Small School doesn’t even have a tank for you.

    Second, as you must have recognized, though you seem to *want* Senshado to be a sport and follow their conventions, it clearly doesn’t at least in some respects. Perhaps your expectations should be adjusted to meet observation. Clearly, Senshado practitioners just aren’t as willing to agree to being shafted just for being in a big school. Since it is an elective (most sports are clubs), this attitude is arguably proper.

    Third, even if you insist it is a sport, have you considered that the understrength teams may be a concession from the tankery federation? Think of Duck Team, who are too few in numbers to go out and play. Now, suppose the volleyball authorities allow them to play understrength. Would it be too much to insist the other team break their usual assignment of roles and training for usual volleyball tactics (which assume the full team) just to accomodate Duck Team just because they can’t mobilize enough players? Or is it unfair to the other team?

    Conventional tactics for sports are made based on having full teams of certain sizes. When teams are too small, the tactics change.

    We actually *see* this with Saunders. As it is, when “squeezed” into the 10-tank competition, to maintain three maneuver elements, their usual platoons are dropped and they are reformed into three-tank platoons. The very *nature* of a three tank platoon is different from a 4-5 tank one. The former is used as a single element (some call a three tank platoon a glorified section). A 5 tank one can split into two elements. Due to this difference in self-sufficiency, the considerations of the Company Commander in employing them change. Further, both the Captain and one of the Deputy Captains is forced to double as a platoon commander. Considering the role of the Deputy Captain as the team’s sniper, this actually also places a dent on the tactical flexibility of the formation as a whole.

    In a sense, Saunders is being restricted in more than numbers every time they squeeze into the first round. Is this fair? Should they be forced into 7-8 tanks and be forced to abandon platoon tactics entirely? Is this sports?

    I’m not saying you don’t have a point. I’m saying there are competing pressures, and they have congealed into the present state (which I clearly find more reasonable than you – we may just have to agree to disagree here). If anything, Oarai actually *just* reduced the impulse to change by breaking the hold of the “Great Powers”.

    • @italianguy88 & @Kazuaki Shimazaki: If you both wish to continue the discussion here, that’s fine with me (NOTE! I haven’t discussed it with Bear, but I would think he’s fine with that as well). I’d be a hypocrite to suggest that long posts are not allowed, but do try to keep the post length within reasonable limits since other visitors to the site may not be as tolerant regarding long posts. If there’s an issue, we’ll let you know.

      ———————————————————-

      @Kazuaki Shimazaki

      ”Second, as you must have recognized, though you seem to *want* Senshado to be a sport and follow their conventions, it clearly doesn’t at least in some respects.”

      It IS a sport and your denial for whatever reason it may serve does not change that fact. Definition of the word “sport”: “An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.” cite

      Physical exertion – check. Skill – check. Teams – check. Compete against each other – check. Senshado is a sport, and by far I am not the only one who considers it as such.

      A) “…Miho will have to learn to love her sport once more and lead Ōarai to victory…”

      B) “Girls und Panzer is set in an alternate universe where a sport known as “Panzerfahren” or “Sensha-do” – the art of fighting tanks, exists. The sport is practiced entirely by girls and women and is considered feminine.”

      C) And most of all – “Forget track and field! At Oorai Girls Academy, they practice Shensha-do, the art of tank combat! But Miho transfers there believing it to be the one school where Shensa-do isn’t offered. She’s in for a rude awakening, however, when the student council president demands her participation in the sport.” From the official US anime site.

      Senshado is a sport, and suggesting that I “want” that is the same as suggesting I want water to be wet. The fact that it is an elective at Oarai changes absolutely NOTHING. Making baseball an elective does not suddenly mean it’s no longer a sport. In fact, at my university you could take a CLASS in tennis for physical education credit (and participation was limited – classes do fill up), and being offered as a class did not suddenly make tennis no longer a sport. YOU may not *wish* it to be a sport, but a sport it remains – by definition and otherwise.

      ” We saw the tanks they had in Ep7. We saw they at best inflicted 1 casualty on Oarai. Thus, the usage of “nerf” is unobjective.”

      As I used the term it means “weaken” (see here ). If the term “nerfed” is a problem, then substitute the word “weakened”.

      First, to suggest that I “didn’t see” the obvious foreshadowed ending is frankly insulting to my intelligence and plain wrong. I did see it. In fact, I pointed it out expressly in my post(s) above. My issue is with OVA battle in general has already been explained. I’m not going to go through it again. I still prefer the official manga’s version of the battle and nothing has changed that.

      As for Anzio’s tank lineup, we saw ONE P40, ONE Semovente 75/18 and ONE CV33 at the end of Ep. 07. That’s it. You need those three plus some others, and the others could have been different. One tank, one TD and one tankette do not necessarily “objectively” translate into SIX CV33s out of ten tanks/TDs/tankettes versus say 4 tankettes and 2x M13/40 along with 3x Semovente 75/18 and one P40. The M13 was, after all, Italy’s most-produced tank of WWII. Just script the battle so the outcome matches Ep. 07 “objectively”.

      Even if Anzio’s exact OVA lineup is in the Gekkan or some other “canon”, I do not care because then I disagree with the “canon” itself, and I have the right to do so. Again, I like Girls und Panzer quite a lot, but it’s not perfect or beyond reproach – “canon” notwithstanding. There are almost countless reviews of anime, light novels, manga, TV shows, movies, books, etc. etc. that disagree with “canon” as presented. Nothing new here at all. In fact, I seem to recall you criticizing the “canon” when it came to “tank destroyer jousting” and how the Rabbit Team is portrayed at times.

      ” Other than, perhaps, realizing that you will wind up like KMM if you keep trying to win through blatantly superior equipment? Remember, KMM is supposed to represent the wrong path!”

      Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. According to your comment, if a school, in perfect compliance with the rules, buys top-notch equipment, then they “will” (100% certainty per definition of the word) end up to the point where winning takes precedence over the safety and even lives of the players. Seriously!? Because putting a higher priority on winning over player safety is the problem with KMM’s approach to the sport. A HUGE problem. In fact, it’s such an extreme example of “winning is everything” that I have to consciously use some suspension of disbelief for what occurred.

      At any rate, there is nothing wrong with KMM buying top notch equipment because it is perfectly legal within the Senshado rules. It is unfathomable that you can criticize a team for fully complying with the rules. Again, if there is a problem with that then the problem is with the rules which are also “canon” and easily “observed”. NOTE! I am by NOT, repeat, NOT endorsing KMM’s stupid, reckless endangerment of their players. That is an ENTIRELY different issue.

      ”Perhaps your expectations should be adjusted to meet observation.”

      Frankly, I’m not sure how to take this statement. Again, to suggest I am “unable” to “observe” the story properly is insulting to my intelligence. Do NOT do that! I am “observing” just fine, but I don’t like everything I “observe”.

      I think our discussion has become circular and I’m not going to address the remaining points. I agree with parts of your comment and disagree with others (e.g. “participation”). As I stated before, you are entitled to your opinion to the same extent I am, and we can “agree to disagree” – but do not insinuate than I am incapable of properly “observing “ the story and whatnot. While I may not have all the supplementary information, I understand the series just fine. I simply do not think the entire story is perfectly written. That does NOT mean I think it’s bad. That means I think it has room for improvement.

      • @daikama88
        “An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.”

        Is this the definition you want to commit to?

        If yes, I respond thus: Fine, it’s a sport – I shall expand my private conception of them. However, according to your definition, there is no requirement or preference for the teams to be of the same size or even w/i 10:1 of each other. Presumably then, team sizes or acceptable ratios are defined by the needs and zeitgeist of each particular sport. In any case, a person cannot argue for more balanced sizes or equipment ratios on grounds of “it is a sport” – the definition contains no such requirement nor preference.

        As I used the term it means “weaken”

        “Weaken” has the same basic problem as nerf. It is a relative term and so you need a reference relative to which it has been weakened.

        First, to suggest that I “didn’t see” the obvious foreshadowed ending is frankly insulting to my intelligence and plain wrong.

        I did not say you “didn’t see” the obvious foreshadowed ending. In fact, it wasn’t until you started using words like “nerf” that I began to suspect you had unrealistic and unfounded expectations of Anzio’s tank fleet pre-show.

        As for Anzio’s tank lineup, we saw ONE P40, ONE Semovente 75/18 and ONE CV33 at the end of Ep. 07. That’s it. You need those three plus some others, and the others could have been different.

        It wouldn’t break the canon continuity for those to have been different, but it is not extrapolating from available evidence either. Given the information provided, you can hope they have an M13/14/15, but you cannot reasonably expect them to have one based on available evidence. Them not being as strong as you preferred does not justify saying they have been “weakened”.

        In fact, I seem to recall you criticizing the “canon” when it came to “tank destroyer jousting” and how the Rabbit Team is portrayed at times.

        Make no mistake, I don’t agree with every minute of canon. However, in no case so far did I actually say anyone was “nerfed”. I said Erwin did not make a great tactical choice – I did not say the author weakened her. I saw it as descriptive of Hippo Team.

        And though I do believe the author is allocating too much bad luck and dashing Rabbit Team’s efforts, that’s not a nerf either – might be a “shaft” though (BTW, in light of the other tank fleets, you can’t say Anzio was “shafted” either). But then this year overall they are “buffing” Rabbit Team. I’m surprised to learn they fixed the track after the little first match and I’m sure you are sick of my description of their actions in the OVA so I won’t repeat it.

        Because putting a higher priority on winning over player safety is the problem with KMM’s approach to the sport.

        The prioritization of winning over player safety is a serious but actually rarely invoked problem, and in any case while Miho got a reward for saving Rabbit Team, KMM didn’t actually pay for its opposite choice which it didn’t execute anyway because Miho jumped into the river.

        Besides, while I’m of a mind as portrayed “last year” was checkmated at the point the Pz III was swept into the river (as opposed to when Miho jumped out of her tank), if we ignore this technicality, then the story actually *also* affirms the validity of sacrifice. KMM did have to give up a win for Miho’s choice. In Little Army, not saving your own tank actually means the enemy would leap out to save it for you, allowing you an easier win and not losing lives!

        No, the idea of winning > player safety is not really well refuted in GuP. The idea that saving your crews can have rewards as well is substantiated, but that’s not the same thing. On this point, Miho’s view was substantiated without blasting Shiho’s out of the water.

        KMM’s larger strategic problem was to place a priority on winning over remembering the self-bettering properties of Senshado. This emphasis on winning caused them to expend the budget on just enough tanks to fit the last match of the tournament. This reduced the size of the denominator, which automatically reduced the potential of the candidates for the tournament (they are forced to take everyone they trained, rather than being able to select from the trainees). Further, in the long run, the pursuit of the most powerful vehicles possible reduced the motivation (and perhaps even the opportunity by cutting into availability of vehicles and budget for training fuel / ammo) to train. The result is that for all its reputation, onscreen KMM is the least proficient team we saw.

        Thus it is forced into situations where they have to choose between lives and winning (again, if we ignore the technicality) – the machines should have guaranteed them an easy win. And in the end, just losing in these conditions is bad enough, but they were outfought to a disgraceful degree for a 9-year champ school versus newbie school. That’s where they went wrong, according to the show.

        >Again, to suggest I am “unable” to “observe” the story properly is insulting to my intelligence. Do NOT do that! I am “observing” just fine, but I don’t like everything I “observe”.

        In light of your choice of definition for “sport”, this point is obsolete (see above). On the broader point, if I don’t believe in your ability to observe, I won’t be asking you to adjust your expectations to meet up with observation – you can’t do that if you can’t observe.

        What I do see is IMO a tendency towards being judgmental using your own models and wishes over analyzing the demerits and merits of the show’s choices. Thus, you don’t just “prefer” Anzio to have more medium tanks, they are weakened / nerfed for not having them. And Senshado is a sport and should have even sized teams (or close to it), even though your definition of sport does not even indicate a preference for even sized teams!

        Hopefully, you are not insulted by this – it is meant to be a criticism, but not a personal attack or insult.

  12. [Decided to move the part of the discussion related to Italian tanks and their spec charts over to the OVA post. you can find it here Otherwise keep commenting here except for that discussion. We’d like to keep the topics under the related posts if possible–Bear]

  13. In response to some of Kazuaki’s points, and yes, I am aware you have all agreed on a definition at this point.

    “but you do realize that the sports system of fixed numbers actually *does* disadvantage those that happen to come from bigger schools do you?…is this fair or meritocratic?”
    High school and higher level sports teams play to win, so yes, it is meritocratic and that really isn’t a problem, considering people go into tryouts knowing this.

    “you may be justifiably angry that a guy that can barely kick the ball is at least on the field simply because he’s in a small school”
    Perhaps, but on the other hand, say you transferred to that guy’s school. You might get to play, but if the team is that desperate for members, you won’t be winning and it won’t be fun. Trust me. I’ve been there. Loss after loss makes the team lose motivation and slack off.

    “With Senshado, I say again, Small School doesn’t even have a tank for you.”
    Small School doesn’t even have football pads for you. Small School doesn’t even have baseballs for you. Small School doesn’t even have goals for you. There are plenty of things schools are expected to provide that they may not have, the most important being a playing field.

    “Clearly, Senshado practitioners just aren’t as willing to agree to being shafted just for being in a big school.”
    Personally, I never saw this as an issue. If the default team size is 20, then any matches in previous rounds are a compromise to allow for smaller schools to at least make it to round 2. Honestly, though, a lot of tournaments could really care less about “fairness.” I’ve played baseball in plenty of tournaments where we, the bottom seed, would play the top seed, because that’s the way it works. I think the larger issue here is that the GuP universe is too small. Typically, in sports, when one refers to “top schools,” you think of maybe the top 10 or 20, because there are so many teams. In this case, nobody points out how smaller schools don’t have a chance. However, in GuP, there are a total of 16 schools (plus a few that didn’t appear in the anime), and it’s easier to complain because the league is dominated by two or three schools.

    “even if you insist it is a sport, have you considered that the understrength teams may be a concession from the tankery federation?”
    I have no objection to this point either. Considering how expensive tanks probably are, it’s a necessary concession. I wouldn’t expect any team to hold back. Consider baseball (and sorry if you’re sick of hearing about the sport): there are baseball bats that are scientifically proven to hit further with less effort, some of which are so powerful they are banned. A lot of well known universities are sponsored by companies, and given free sets of these high quality bats (each one costs about $200-400 on average). When they play a less-known team who relies on players bringing their own bats, this is technically “unfair.”

    • >In response to some of Kazuaki’s points, and yes, I am aware you have all agreed on a definition at this point.

      Not exactly to be honest. It is just that the very broad definition effectively brings the word “sports” back out of play, which is exactly where I want it.

      First, while the *American* ad might disagree, Senshado practitioners never seem to call their art a “sport” – neither the terms 運動 or スポーツ are used (except for Tankathlon players as a “sour-grapes” jab towards the art they don’t have the tanks for). Rather it is a 嗜み (interest) or a 武芸 (martial art) – which are somewhat different.

      Whatever labels you choose, I feel it is important to recognize their limitations, to identify the peculiarities of Senshado without being locked in by stereotypes.

      >High school and higher level sports teams play to win, so yes, it is meritocratic and that really isn’t a problem, considering people go into tryouts knowing this.

      This reads to me like a tactic acknowledgment that it isn’t really completely fair. But because it is voluntary, it is considered sufficiently acceptable no big waves happen. I don’t disagree with that – just that it may not be as applicable to Senshado.

      >Perhaps, but on the other hand, say you transferred to that guy’s school. You might get to play, but if the team is that desperate for members, you won’t be winning and it won’t be fun. Trust me. I’ve been there. Loss after loss makes the team lose motivation and slack off.

      Oh I can sympathize.

      >Small School […] field.

      While there are indeed some small schools out there, a typical school sport nevertheless is cheap enough that the average school can provide functional if not luxurious implements for it, and in the last instance the interested can purchase the required tools within their families’ pockets. Even the field is generally resolvable. Not like Tankery, which is probably why significant activity seems to be limited to about 20 schools. (There are about 6 million junior high and high school students in Japan, which will take around 100 KMM-sized schools or several hundred Oarai sized schools to hold).

      It might not be that the GuP universe is small – rather a recognition that Tankery is *expensive*.

      >If the default team size is 20, then any matches in previous rounds are a compromise to allow for smaller schools to at least make it to round 2.

      As you agree, it is already a compromise and so perhaps further compromise is rather difficult – that’s all I was saying about this.

      The full game, by the way, is 50 on 50. At that size, only Saunders and Pravda can play.
      ——
      Ultimately, I don’t think Senshado (at least at the Japanese High School level) fits in the usual “school team sport” mould. As you mentioned, the environment is different – the total of teams and members are actually pretty small – a thousand players total, maybe? Further, the equipment disparity is much more than the difference between the best and a merely functional baseball bat.

      Under these circumstances, the sheer impossibility of winning ironically reduces its importance to most people. It is kind of like how most people *don’t* use all their ruthlessness and resources to become the President or even the CEO of a company – one reason is that it is so far away. The relative importance of general participation increases, even to the players themselves (to say nothing of the school).

      In any case, regardless of cause, it seems quite clear, just from the equipment picks, that they are (as daikama constantly points out) not really the picks you’d make from a “school team sport” mentality, more the picks that would allow more general participation. I think I’ll prefer to embrace this aspect of Senshado rather than insisting everyone think like a Male Sports Player.

      That’s all I’m saying 😀

      • Sorry, I can’t agree with some of your argument. You say that they typically use the terms “interest” or “martial art”. The “do” in Shensha-do is usually translated as “way”AFAIK. So though a martial art (judo or kendo for examples) is a “way” of improving ones self that is not related to competition, it in no way overrides the fact that they are also competitive sports. You can train in judo and never compete or only be interested in it in a competitive way. One definition does not exclude the existence of the other.

        There are a number of sports that compete with unequal teams and equipment. Bicycle racing for one. Car racing, boat racing are others. You may not be able to field a full cycling team or top equipment and will be disadvantaged because you can’t draft as much but you still compete. American basketball at the college level is played in conferences that are (mostly) related to the size of the school so there is reasonable competition, but at the NCAA tournament all schools that compete have to play each other regardless of the size of the program.

  14. What do you all think of the chances of a season 2? While I hope there is, I think the chances are slim, unless the movie is extremely successful. There are a few manga to satisfy dedicated fans, but it’s been quite a while since the series ended. Ideally, I’d like something that makes a reference to Little Army, whether it’s a prequel or sequel. Otherwise, I’m fine with anything; I just want another season. Fortunately, I’m accustomed to waiting for anime. I didn’t lose hope for Strike Witches or Nanoha; I won’t lose hope for this (at least not for a few years after the movie comes out).

    • @flaze35: I’d like to see a second, even a third season, but honestly I pretty much gave up on that once they announced the movie rather than a second season after the first season ended. Given how popular the first season was, going the movie route says something I think. Just my opinion, but if they had thoughts of a second season, I think they would have chosen to do that rather than a movie.

      As we and others have discussed, Season One is a complete story which wasn’t designed for a sequel. That’s not to say you can’t do one, but per our prior discussions, it would be challenging due in no small part to a good chunk of Oarai’s team graduating. Another thing I wonder about is whether production could keep up with weekly TV airing. Season one had that 3 month delay, the 40min Anzio OVA took over a year to release, and the movie is now delayed until late this year. I’m glad the GuP staff takes production quality seriously, but all these delays don’t inspire confidence when it comes to the franchise putting out a HQ weekly episode on time.

      I wouldn’t mind seeing Little Army in anime form, but it’s too short as is for a full season. I think that works better as a series of OVA. One possibility is to do a prequel going waaay back, focusing on Shiho Nishizumi when she participated in Sensha-do and the creation of the Nishizumi style. Other than that, I think the natural sequel is Oarai defending their title the following year.

      Long story short, it’s possible – especially if the movie is wildly successful, but I’m not holding out much hope. Even if there is a second season, I think we’re looking at least two if not three years or more down the road.

  15. Lately, I’ve been hearing about a sequel to Little Army that takes place after the series, called Little Army II. There’s a couple of preview pics here. http://otakomu.jp/archives/252483.html The first chapter was supposedly published yesterday. If you’ve read Little Army, you can probably guess what they’re saying in the previews just by looking at them. First pic is basically Emi and Hitomi meeting each other by coincidence. It says it’s been 5 years since they last met, and that she’s a second year at a high school that I’m not sure how to romanize (Be-ru-uo-ru…..Bellwall?). Second is Emi seeing Miho on the news and Miho being modest as usual.

    • @flaze35: Thanks for the update. Kind of confused on the timeline. IIRC, Little Army took place 6 years before TV Season 1, but from what I can tell, LA II is set right after Oarai won the Sensha-do Tournament. Any thoughts?

      Thanks

      • I’m just happy I get to see the LA girls again. I recall seeing somewhere that the story is about Emi fufilling a promise but I don’t remember what that promise is because it’s been a while since I’ve read Little Army. Also, it looks like Emi transferred to Hitomi’s highschool, so I’m not sure how Chihiro, who went to a different school, is supposed to fit into this story. Considering the tournament is over, I guess any fights in the story would have to be unofficial practice matches.

        On a side note, I love all the spinoff mangas there are now.

        • I just read the first chapter (raw) yesterday. I wasn’t disappointed and I can’t wait for the next chapter.

        • @flaze35: Thanks for the update. I’m interested in reading “LA II”, but no can do with raws only. Hopefully someone will scan it. I’ve read some of the other spinoff’s and have mixed feelings about them. Not quite up to par IMO compared to the GuP and LA manga.

        • It’s true, none of them are as good as LA (dem feels). Of the serious spinoffs, I say LA/LA II > Maginot > Ribbon Warrior
          Ribbon warrior just feels too unrelated to the cast I know.
          Maginot is somewhat relevant. The story isn’t great at this point, but I’ll let it play out for a bit more before deciding how inferior it is to LA.

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